View source for An Old Conversation with Brother Grotheer

 '''From:''' _____<nowiki>[mailto:_____@gmail.com]</nowiki>                                          '''Sent:''' Tuesday, October 14, 2008 2:31 AM                                    '''To:''' webmaster@adventistlaymen.com 
                                                                                                                    '''Subject:''' An old conversation with Brother Grotheer 
<blockquote>I have some interesting information which I talked over with Brother Grotheer a while ago regarding the  corporate agenda of the Holy Place.

When Jesus ascended to heaven he was symbolically depicted in the midst of the 7 candlesticks =7 churches. It is Holy Place symbolism. Brother Grotheer helped me to decipher this detail.

He told me that this was not alluding to a physical Holy Place. So I answered by telling him that it was still Holy Place Symbolism because of the Candle sticks and he agreed.

So here we have Jesus doing a High Priestly work of corporate repentance by making calls for corporate repentance. We know that two churches didn't need to repent. Smyrna and Philadelphia. We also see that the Bible is not necessarily telling us that Jesus is to be located in a physical Holy place or conducting the Holy Place agenda in a physical room such as the Holy Place but the agenda is still being revealed.

This revelation nullifies Desmond Ford's day of Atonement theology which according to Mr. Ford commenced  shortly after Jesus ascension.

I also realized that Laodicea's corporate repentance presented a problem on the day of atonement because the day of atonement wasn't for corporate confession and repentance it was for  the cleansing of both  the corporate and  the individual a totally different agenda which took place once a year.

Brother Grotheer stated that there was a provision for corporate repentance extended to Laodicea . So it was in his booklet that I found that during the annual cycle of feasts which were 7, the High Priest had to go into the Holy Place with a sin offering of a goat and the last of the feasts was the Day of Atonement. So on the Day of Atonement there was also a work of corporate confession and repentance a Holy Place agenda. This new thinking challenges the preconceived notion of the mainline church's thinking regarding the agenda of the Holy Place as a place of individual intercession. The final revelation of the High Priestly work of Christ within the Holy Place was to be accomplished on behalf of Laodicea which has rejected Jesus High Priestly ministry in the Holy Place during the antitypical Day of Atonement.

Check these versus with the Bible and apply them to corporate Laodicea and you get a new picture of the Holy Place and the role of Jesus work among the 7 churches=corporate entities. The problem with the challenged posed by Desmond Ford's theology is that the SDA mainline theology never addressed the issue of the corporate agenda of the Holy Place. Once it is understood by the identification in Leviticus 4 then we can understand Jesus work on behalf of the 7 churches throughout history, Laodicea being the last church that rejects that Holy Place ministry.

As sister white stated, we have many things to learn and unlearn.

Corporate sin offerings in the Holy Place in each festival references :

1. The Feast of the New Moon - Numbers 28:11-1 5

2. Feast of Unleavened Bread - Numbers 28:16-2 2

3. Day of the First Fruits (Pentecost) - Numbers 28:26-30

   See also Leviticus 23:19 .

4. Blowing of the Trumpets - Numbers 29:1- 5

5. Feast of Tabernacles - Numbers 29:12-1 6

6. Octave of the Feast of Tabernacles - Numbers 29 :35-38

7. Day of Atonement - Numbers 29:7-11</blockquote>
 '''From:''' webmaster@adventistlaymen.com                                       '''Sent:''' Saturday, October 18, 2008 5:44 PM                                    '''To:''' '_____' 
                                                                                                                    '''Subject:''' RE: An old conversation with Brother Grotheer 
<blockquote>Dear Bro. _____:

Thank you for raising a vital subject which inextricably involves the Sanctuary Doctrine.  Your approach to the issue of corporate repentance is interesting.  I am not sure that it provides the clearest view of the ministry of Christ in the Heavenly Sanctuary, and the final pronouncement of judgment on the Laodicean Church.  The judging and close of probation for Laodicea (the SDA Church) is best understood in the context of the Sanctuary service as depicted in Lev. 4 & 16.

First, let me deal with the Holy Place symbolism of Rev. 1:12-13.  It is also found in Rev. 4:5.  Elder Grotheer pointed out to you that these texts of Scripture do not describe a place in physical terms.  However, the Scriptures clearly establish that there is a Heavenly Sanctuary, or Tabernacle “which the Lord pitched, and not man.”  I am sure that we are agreed on this.  In Dan. 7:9-10 the scene of the judgment depicted clearly establishes that the Heavenly Sanctuary must be of proportions beyond human comprehension, which is one reason why the emphasis that many SDA teachers place on the physical structure and appointments of the earthly Sanctuary is misguided.  The Apostle Paul emphasized the <u>ministry</u> of the Sanctuary:

Now of the things which we have spoken ''this is'' the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man. For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore ''it is'' of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer. For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law: Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, ''that'' thou make all things according to the pattern showed to thee in the mount (Heb. 8:1-5.)  

Unquestionably, Jesus Christ began His ministry in the Holy Place (Heb. 4:14-16.)  It is also the fact that this was a work for the corporate bodies of the world, including churches (John 3:16; Rev. 2:21<sup>[1]</sup>.)  In the work of intercession for corporate bodies, there was of necessity included intercession for individuals.  The close of probation for a corporate body does not of necessity preclude the acceptance of individuals from that corporate body who believe.

This brings us to the devilish work of Desmond Ford.  His has been a work of demolishing the foundation principles of interpreting Bible prophecy which long preceded the establishment of the SDA Church.  The result has been the rejection of all of the great prophecies which enlighten us on the march of history towards its ultimate conclusion.  The interpretations of Dan. 8:14, and also of the Scriptures which identify the papacy as the antichrist among others, are destroyed for those who have been seduced by Ford’s sophistry.  Given the reprobate nature of his work, it is not surprising that his understanding of the Book of Hebrews is sadly wanting.  One text that he and his allies have misapplied is Heb. 9:12.  Elder Grotheer has demonstrated that the KJV provides a misleading translation of this text (Cf. <u>[[WWN April 2003|God's Objective for the Sanctuary  -1-]]</u> ;) and a mix of translations of the Greek “Ta Hagia”)  (Cf. <u>[[WWN August 2003|TA HAGIA]]</u>.)  He has corresponded with Ford on these issues to no avail.

The Sanctuary service described in the Book of Leviticus clearly establishes not only that Jesus Christ began His ministry in the Holy Place, but also that the antitypical Day of Atonement proceeds in phases.  You have correctly observed that the ministry of Christ in the Holy Place provided forgiveness for sin; but in the antitypical Day of Atonement the objective is forgiveness <u>and cleansing</u>.  To hold the position that the atonement was completed on the Cross is to deny the final phase of the antitypical Day of Atonement in which Jesus Christ will cleanse His people from their sins and enable them in the last remnant of time in this world to live above sin, while not yet delivered from the sinful flesh with which they were born.  This highlights the critical importance of the fact that He lived a sinless life in sinful flesh!

Leviticus 16 reveals that contrary to the traditional SDA concept the judgment has moved from the Holy of Holies to the Holy Place, and will end in the outer Court, which is this world and the place of the Cross.  This has been a movement from the judgment of God Himself (Rev. 14:7) in the Most Holy, to the judgment of corporate bodies (Rev. 14:8) in the Holy Place, to the judgment of individuals (Rev. 14:9-11) in this world, now in progress.  Ezekiel 9 & 10 also reveals movement (Cf. Eze. 9:3; 10:4, 18.)  Not only do these texts reveal movement, but we see that God the Father passes right through the Holy Place on His way to the threshold.  It has been a grave mistake to think that there has been one continuous session of the judgment from 1844 to the present day, and even more so to believe that He has been judging the righteous.  As Elder Grotheer has pointed out, the judgment which commenced with the opening of the books does not end until the execution of judgment at the end of the millennium.  Here it is appropriate to point out that Desmond Ford’s theology is not totally devoid of truth.  For example, it is correct that the righteous do not come into judgment before the throne of the Father (Cf. John 5:22, 24.)  Ford is offering deadly poison because he has strayed so far out of the track of Truth in the process of pointing out those elements of Truth that can be found in his theology.

Ellen G. White appropriately connects Eze. 9 with the sealing time (5T., p. 207,) and the Laodicean Church (3T., 267, end of Para. 1.)  Laodicea means “judging of the people;” and can also be interpreted as “a just people” or “a justified people.”   In my view all of the interpretations are appropriate in the context of Rev. 3:14-22.  The time of the antitypical Day of Atonement is clearly indicated here, and there is first a judgment of the corporate body of Seventh-day Adventists.  Jesus Christ has unequivocally stated, “I will spue thee out of my mouth.”  This is a critical part of the conclusion of the cleansing of the Holy Place.  He then turns to the individual and extends the invitation and promises of verses 20 & 21.  Those specified in verse 21 are the “just people” or the “justified people.”  These are cleansed in the final atonement.  Prior to this time probation has closed for the corporate body.  Precisely when this occurs is not revealed in the above-mentioned chapters of Daniel and the Revelation.  However Jesus Himself foretold the time in Luke 21:24 (Cf. ''[[Jerusalem in Bible Prophecy|<u>Jerusalem in Bible Prophecy</u>]].)  (For further study or re-study cf. <u>The Sanctuary Doctrine</u>.)''

''Again, thank you for your interest.''

''Very sincerely,''

''Eric Jones (Webmaster@adventistlaymen.com)''</blockquote><sup>[1]</sup> Under the figure of Jezebel, our Lord has said of the Roman Church,  "And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not."  (Rev 2:21.)  Protestant and S.D.A. Bible expositors have long characterized the period of the church in Thyatira as the era of papal supremacy (See ''S.D.A. Bible Commentary'', Vol. 7 pp. 753-754.)  "As applied to the Thyratira period of Christian history, the figure of Jezebel represents the power that produced the great apostasy of the medieval centuries" (ibid. p. 751.)  The Bible Commentary states that the textual evidence attests the reading to be "is not willing to repent," meaning that she refuses to do so.  "Here was no case of unenlightened, nor even of willful ignorance, '''but of insistent and defiant rebellion'''" (ibid. p. 751; emphasis supplied.)  ('''<u>THE CHURCH OF ROME IN BIBLE PROPHECY</u>''', P.1, Para. 2)