Exchanges with Mr. Grotheer - And More

To the Reader:

Some time ago, Daniel Winters initiated correspondence with Elder Wm. H. Grotheer which ended inconclusively, entirely due to Winters' lack of comprehension of what Elder Grotheer was trying to convey to him. Winters published the correspondence on his website.

Following is a hyperlink to the exchange: LINK

In November of last year Winters accosted webmaster@adventistlaymen.com about [the]¹ adventistlaymen.com website, which had recently been published. Following is the correspondence which ensued.

Correspondence

From:    "Daniel Winters" <tenkoku@hotmail.com>                             To:      <webmaster@adventistlaymen.com>                                      Sent:    Sunday, Nov 30, 2003 1:11 pm                                      Subject: Re: regarding William Grotheer and the Spirit of Prophecy

Hello,

In the recent WWN (that i have asked many times to be taken off the mailing list), your website's URL was listed, so I just went and looked at it. I don't know why you have taken it upon yourself to promote Elder Grotheer's theories, but i can tell you for certainty, that he does NOT believe in the Spirit of Prophecy - especially when it directly contradicts some of his pet ideas like the times of the Gentiles being fulfilled in 1967 etc.

Elder Grotheer and i had correspondence, and he made his feelings towards the SOP clear. I have put the correspondence up on the Internet, and you can view it here: http://storm.prohosting.com/dannywin/grotheer.html

This is just for your information. I too believe Elder Grotheer has done a lot of good, but he is definitely leading souls astray at the current time.

May God watch over all his sheep, Daniel Winters www.earlysda.com PS: Your web site looks nice

From:    <webmaster@adventistlaymen.com>                                 To:      <Daniel Winters <tenkoku1@hotmail.com>                                      Sent:    Tuesday, Dec 2, 2003 9:02 am                                      Subject: Regarding William Grotheer and the Spirit of Prophecy

Dear Bro. Winters:

Thank you for your e-mail message. The division of responsibilities for the website assigns doctrinal matters to Elder Grotheer. However, your message raises questions about the website itself, and the nature of your doctrinal statements demand a reply from me. My reply will be fairly detailed, so I probably cannot write it until the latter part of this week at the earliest. However, be assured that I will reply in detail.

Again, thanking for your interest and the compliment on the appearance of the website.

Yours very sincerely, Webmaster

From:    <webmaster@adventistlaymen.com>                                 To:      <Daniel Winters <tenkoku1@hotmail.com>                                      Sent:    Tuesday, Dec 2, 2003 9:02 am                                      Subject: Regarding William Grotheer and the Spirit of Prophecy

Dear Daniel Winters:

I perused your e-mail message briefly before writing my last reply hurriedly. I did not notice the hyperlink to the website where you have published the exchange of correspondence with Elder Grotheer. I have since read the letters, and arrived at the conclusion that I would accomplish nothing by sending you a "detailed" reply on the subject of Luke 21:24. You take facts that are stated as clearly as could be, and twist them into meanings quite different from those of the writer. It is impossible to dialogue rationally in that fashion. Small wonder then, that Elder Grotheer did not respond to your last letter. He has already dealt with your objections with a degree of scholarship and logic that I cannot match. The unfolding fulfillment of prophecy is understood by making logical deductions from the facts of history and current events. This was the case in establishing 457 B.C. as the starting date of Daniel's prophecy of the 2300 days, as it was the case in establishing 538 A.D. as the starting date of the 1260 years of papal supremacy. The beginning and ending of each of these periods, and the events in between, were all established as fulfillment of prophecies by the incontrovertible evidence of history. Elder Grotheer's exegesis of Luke 21:24 is no more "theory" than the established exegeses of these two great prophecies. If you cannot "see" the Truth presented in his letters and the issues of Watchman, What of the Night? one can only hope that conviction will be brought to your mind by the Holy Spirit through some other means.

What amazes me is that you presume to challenge a man highly regarded for his scholarship, even by those who do not agree with his biblical exegesis) You have demonstrated an abysmal ignorance of the Bible, and also the very "SOP" that you boast of using as your guide. For example, you go all the way to Rev. 19 in attempting to disprove that the High Priest was garbed in linen from head to toe on the Day of Atonement. Why not exercise simple common sense and read the chapter of the Bible that settles the issue? I refer to Eze. 9, as she counsels in 3T, p 267. Note how Eze. 9 is woven into the testimony "the Seal of God, in 5T, p. 211. You, like a host of others, are a present-day fulfillment of Isa. 6:9-10 and Man. 13:14-25. 1 would recommend a heartfelt prayer that, "the eyes of your understanding be enlightened" by the Holy Spirit: you may hear and understand, see and perceive. I never cease to utter that prayer for myself, because of our Lord's own warning in Matt. 24:24. There is also this grave warning from the Spirit of Prophecy:

I have been shown that Satan has not been stupid and careless these many years, since his fall, but has been learning. He has grown more artful. His plans are laid deeper, and are more covered with a religious garment to hide their deformity. The power of Satan now to tempt and deceive is ten-fold greater than it was in the days of the apostles. His power has increased, and it will increase, until it is taken away. (2 SG, p,277; emphasis supplied.)

Anyone who is dismissive of Ellen G. White's own repeated counsel setting forth the primacy of the Bible, and persists in rejecting the clear statements of the Bible when there is conflict with the Writings is in great peril! Persistence in trying to reconcile conflicts, or in misusing the Writings as the ultimate expositor of the Bible leads to hopeless confusion. That confusion is compounded by ignoring the counsel, "Regarding the testimonies, nothing is ignored; nothing is cast aside; but time and place must be considered" (1SM, p.57) A classic example is her warnings of the 1880s. The following two are dated 1881:

I would, at this time, sound the note of warning to those who shall assemble at our camp meeting. The end of all things is at hand. (5T. 16) Brethren and sisters, I have been shown that we are standing upon the threshold of the eternal world. (5T. 18)

These statements would be appropriate for the present time; but nobody uses them in that context. Why? Because it would defy logic to do so. In context these statements clearly applied to that specific time. I assure you that it equally defies logic to expect a great influx of genuine conversions, now or in the future, into a Church that, as predicted by Ellen G. White, is sinking deeper and deeper into apostasy. Yet that is precisely how Great Controversy is applied today, even by those who abhor the apostasy, and I suspect that this is one reason why your mind is closed to the reality that the prophecy of Luke 21:24 has been fulfilled and the work of preaching the gospel as a witness to all nations is closed. In this context read Early Writings pp. 272 (last paragraph) & 272 (first paragraph,) for a description of the conditions under which the Loud Cry message is proclaimed.

There are some vital elements of Present Truth that can be understood and accepted only by choosing the Bible over the Writings. One such is the Sanctuary doctrine, involving the judgment and Final Atonement, studied in the light of Jesus' own statement in John 5:24:

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. (KJV)

Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life (NKJV)

Verily, verily, I say to you- He who is hearing my word and is believing Him who sent me, hath life age-during, and to judgment he doth not come, but hath passed out of the death to the life. (Young's Literal Translation, emphasis supplied)

The following is taken completely from Patriarchs and Prophets. Note the errors in what was written by Mrs. White, and the correction made by subsequent editors. Was the Holy Spirit responsible for the errors? Absolutely not! Is it a repudiation of the spiritual gift bestowed on her to recognize the error? Very definitely not! This quotation, with a couple of comments by me, closes my message, leaving you to work out the rest for yourself.

The most important part of the daily ministration was the service performed in behalf of individuals. The repentant sinner brought his offering to the door of the tabernacle, and placing his hand upon the victim's head, confessed his sins, thus in figure transferring them from himself to the innocent sacrifice. By his own hand, the animal was then slain, and the blood was carried by the priest into the holy place and sprinkled before the veil, behind which was the ark containing the law that the sinner had transgressed. By this ceremony the sin was, through the blood, transferred in figure to the sanctuary. In some cases the blood was not taken into the holy place; [SEE APPENDIX, NOTE 6.] but the flesh was then to be eaten by the priest as Moses directed the sons of Aaron, saying, "God hath given it to you to bear the iniquity of the congregation." Leviticus 10:17. Both ceremonies alike symbolized the transfer of the sin from the penitent to the sanctuary (PP, pp.354-355, emphasis supplied)

Note 6. Page 354. WHEN A SIN OFFERING WAS PRESENTED FOR A PRIEST [S/B "THE PRIEST THAT IS ANOINTED" (HIGH PRIEST)] OR FOR THE WHOLE CONGREGATION, THE BLOOD WAS CARRIED INTO THE HOLY PLACE AND SPRINKLED BEFORE THE VEIL AND PLACED UPON THE HORNS OF THE GOLDEN ALTAR. THE FAT WAS CONSUMED UPON THE ALTAR OF BURNT OFFERING IN THE COURT, BUT THE BODY OF THE VICTIM WAS BURNED WITHOUT THE CAMP. SEE LEVITICUS 4:1-21 (pp, p. 761)

WHEN, HOWEVER, THE OFFERING WAS FOR A RULER OR FOR ONE OF THE PEOPLE, THE BLOOD WAS NOT TAKEN INTO THE HOLY PLACE, BUT THE FLESH WAS TO BE EATEN BY THE PRIEST. AS THE LORD DIRECTED MOSES: "THE PRIEST THAT OFFERETH IT FOR SIN SHALL EAT IT, IN A HOLY PLACE SHALL IT BE EATEN, IN THE COURT OF THE TENT OF MEETING." LEVITICUS 6:26 ,R.V. SEE ALSO LEVITICUS 4:22-35, (PP, p761, emphasis supplied).

We are carried into the judgment in Jesus Christ. We are accepted in the Beloved, and His righteousness alone merits our salvation. He was made to be sin for us, who knew no sin, that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him. That was the significance of the flesh being eaten by the priest in the court, at the altar of burnt offering, symbolizing the Cross of Calvary. There is where we meet Our Lord as He completes His work in the judgment of the antitypical Day of Atonement. The order of the cleansing of the Sanctuary on the Day of Atonement verifies that it is in the Outer Court, in other words at the cross, that Jesus completes His work of Final Atonement.

Very sincerely, Webmaster.

MORE TO COME...

NOTES

¹The word [the] was originally "this", which was changed to reflect this site being adventistlaymen.net.